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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Pujols, Oviedo Likely Receiving Marlins Contract Offers?

While much of the joy surrounding the Marlins signing Jose Reyes is understandable, some of what the team is doing today is fairly inexplicable. It was confirmed by many sources (example: Clark Spencer of the Miami Herald, H/T MLB Daily Dish) that the Marlins and free agent first baseman Albert Pujols and his agent met for 30 minutes today prior to the official announcement of the Heath Bell signing. Pujols was one of the Marlins' premium targets this offseason, and indeed the Marlins have been pursuing him, if not as aggressively as they did Reyes.

In a completely separate happenstance, Larry Beinfest apparently confirmed that the Marlins will be in fact tendering a contract to Juan Carlos Oviedo, previously known as Leo Nunez, this offseason (H/T MLB Daily Dish). This comes even as the Fish announced that "the closer formerly known as" Leo Nunez had done a good job closing for the team during the Bell press conference.

This news is funny to me in that both ideas are ludicrous. One of them is ludicrous in a sort of "I can't believe the team is going this far" sense; the other is ludicrous in a sort of "I can't believe the team is being this stupid sense." I also think both, in the end, will amount to nothing.

Star-divide

The Pujols Offer

The Marlins are unlikely to get Pujols. He would require a major investment, and even if the team is willing to up the ante for him, I doubt the club can make up the difference in Pujols's heart between Miami and his beloved St. Louis. The Cardinals are probably still the favorites until one team blows him out of the water with a deal.

If that team happens to be the Marlins, you can all but forget retaining any player other than Mike Stanton for longer than the 2017 season and beyond, because the Fish will be locked into so much long-term money between Pujols and Reyes that they will need the remaining dollars to retain Stanton as the third piece of a major, older-than-necessary core. The team would also be banking on the aging capabilities of Pujols and Reyes to carry much of the franchise into the foreseeable future, and while that might not sound awful, we've already seen that Reyes may be in for a sharper-than-expected decline.

Having said that, any signing of Pujols would also make the seasons leading up to 2014 very exciting, as much of the Marlins' current core remains under contract through that year. If a Pujols signing does happen, it would ensure that the Marlins would require a Gaby Sanchez trade, but such a move would be more than doable and would be embraced for the following three years as the Marlins then boasted one of the premier lineups in all of baseball. For Fish fans uninterested in the long-term implications, it would be a dream come true.

The Oviedo Offer

Now this idea is just ridiculous. From a player evaluation standpoint, there is no excuse for the Marlins to pay Oviedo, an average at best reliever at this stage, $6 million for his 2012 contributions. Last season, the club tinkered with Ovidedo's approach, encouraging him to pick up his slider after he all but abandoned it his successful 2010. While this may not have been the only difference between those seasons, it did seem to have an effect, as it lessened the use of what was easily Oviedo's best pitch. Perhaps partly as a result, Oviedo regressed in a major way, began allowing fly balls to a significantly higher number of hitters, and returned to being closer to the 2009 version than the 2010 version.

Having said that, there is a chance Oviedo remains effective in 2012. Unfortunately, there is little chance he is effective enough to be worth $6 million, and the Marlins should not want to pay to find out. If he re-signs, he would return as a setup man for Bell, but that role is already adequately performed by a myriad of solid relievers who will cost less in 2012. Jose Ceda, Steve Cishek, and Edward Mujica can each at least duplicate Oviedo's performances over the last three seasons, and they will do it for less money combined than Oviedo will make in 2012. There is simply no reason to deny one of them the opportunity for a more important pen role because Oviedo happened to be the guy who picked up saves the last three years.

I have heard the argument that this is Jeff Loria's money and not my own, and that the Oviedo deal would be a one-year move that would not affect the team long-term. This is completely correct, but what disappoints me most is what it means for the level of player evaluation the front office is at. To pay a mediocre reliever $6 million with the only reasoning being "because we can" speaks to how backwards the organization may very well be. It is one thing to sign a legitimate reliever like Bell to a mutli-year contract and argue that sabermetric analysis has yet to nail down the value of the closer (I have my doubts on the matter), but it is another to go with a setup man whose best trait was the meaningless "save" stat and whose best season was erased in part by the team's own tinkering. It speaks volumes of just how little the team pays attention to objective, intelligent analysis.

Of course, it could all be a PR stunt. The Marlins may simply be driving up the value of Oviedo by saying that they will indeed keep him, only to shop him around before the non-tender deadline next week. If the club maintains this stance then is able to find some team to bite on him in a trade, the return would almost be meaningless, as it would obviously be marginally better than receiving nothing by non-tendering. I suspect this is the way the team is going, and it would make me feel a lot better if this is what eventually happens by next week.

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I thought we needed a couple lefty starters

I hope we dont forget about our starting pitching needs.

by Marlinfan on Dec 5, 2011 5:55 PM EST reply actions  

JCR

was pretty adamant on twitter today that they’re going to try and trade leo

by rayrayrayrayrayrayrayray on Dec 5, 2011 6:04 PM EST reply actions  

This is 6 million that can be better spent elsewhere

I mean seriously, why?? Do we plan to use Oviedo to close over Bell? Doubtful. Do we need him as a setup man? Not really. This 6 million can mean the difference between getting Buehrle, Wilson or both. I’ve said before, address the NEEDS first. Then if you have money left over, by all means, be stupid with it. Or better yet, don’t. We talked about building credibility with this franchise, only to destroy it again with a meaningless move.

As far as Pujols, I’m with you. Awesome if we get him, but very doubtful we have big enough bait to lure him from a team that just won the World Series. What do you think about re-acquiring Josh Willingham, putting him in LF and shifting LoMo to 1st?

Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.

by marlinsfan315 on Dec 5, 2011 6:14 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe a package?

Leo and Gaby for Willingham and Gio?

Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.

by marlinsfan315 on Dec 5, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Willingham is a FA

http://baseballperiod.blogspot.com/

by bronzeagle on Dec 5, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Oops. Ok, then...

Bid on Willingham, deal Leo and Gaby for Gio. Would that work?

Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.

by marlinsfan315 on Dec 5, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Definitely not

Way too small a package. They want Morrison for Gio Gonzalez.

by Michael Jong on Dec 5, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm assuming he's trade bait for spare parts

If Oviedo can’t get the clearance issues resolved, back to the restricted list he goes and costs the team nothing.

If he can play next season, I’m hoping that while an average reliever @ 6 million would likely require eating salary to move, an average reliever that’s a PROVEN CLOSER @ 6 million would net a bench bat or some fringe prospects without including any salary.

by dgriot on Dec 6, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Wants a 3-year deal I hear

Love Cody, but he was what he was, a guy whose best days are when he’s under cheap team control. I’ll pass.

by Michael Jong on Dec 5, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

if we sign an OF

my vote goes to Coco Crisp

http://baseballperiod.blogspot.com/

by bronzeagle on Dec 5, 2011 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Now there's an idea

I can get behind. Heard that one earlier and I was really intrigued, especially at the price and years it would take.

by Michael Jong on Dec 5, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably over 200

Don’t forget, Ozzie Guillen leads all managers in steals attempted. With a lineup that had Coco, Boni, Hanley, and Reyes, 200 would be the low bar.

by ocelotfox on Dec 6, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

How do you guys feel about this?

Ok, we make a legit run and sign Pujols. In order to help cap space and get the starting pitching we need, we then trade Ramirez, Nolasco and Dominguez to Oakland for a package of Gio Gonzalez and Trevor Cahill.

By doing so, we dumped Hanley’s contract, which provides some space so that we can sign someone like Buerhle. Trade Gaby Sanchez for a decent 3rd base like Alex Gordon or Ian Stewart. And that’s that.

Lineup:

Reyes, SS
Infante, 2B
Pujols, 1B
Morrison, LF
Stanton, RF
Gordon/Stewart 3B
Buck, C
Bonifacio/Petersen CF
P

Rotation:

J.J.
Gio Gonzalez
Trevor Cahill
Mark Buehrle
Anibal Sanchez

Closer: Bell
SU: Mujica
Cishek
Dunn
Webb
Ceda
Others..

What do you guys think about that??

I think our best option is to sign Pujols and move Hanley for a couple of pitchers or a pitcher and a serviceable 3rd baseman.

Founder of the "Rob Ryan for Head Coach" Bandwagon.
Assistant Janitor of the Luckfleet

by Zag on Dec 5, 2011 9:07 PM EST reply actions  

Highly unlikely

Oakland won’t take on Ramirez’s or Nolasco’s contract, and they wouldn’t do so and give up both Cahill and Gonzalez. Stewart is attainable, but Gordon is definitely not. In addition, Gordon has spent almost two years playing left field, so it wouldn’t necessarily be wise to move him away, especially since he’s doing decently there.

I wouldn’t get into complicated trade scenarios, the team is looking to add another piece and leave it at that it seems.

by Michael Jong on Dec 5, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah but if that other piece is Pujols...

Then Gaby has to be moved… and it would be safe to assume for Starting Pitching.

Who would we be able to net in a swap for Gaby Sanchez and maybe Matt Dominguez??

Founder of the "Rob Ryan for Head Coach" Bandwagon.
Assistant Janitor of the Luckfleet

by Zag on Dec 5, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't imagine much

Gaby has value, but teams don’t think he is better than league average. Dominguez’s shine has worn off enough that I can’t see him bringing much back. I’m not certain, but I don’t have high hopes for getting an affordable good starter

by Michael Jong on Dec 5, 2011 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

No to moving Hanley

Moving Hanley after signing Reyes is a dumb move. Pujols is an icon and a very christian one who may not really fit into the whole Miami scene very well.

by mali on Dec 6, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Pujols would be dumb to sign with miami

he would make less money. I also dont like the idea of the marlins having a bunch of long term contracts with guys that have no upside. Dont get me wrong, pujols is the best hitter of the last 15 years but he does not have anywhere to go but downhill, same with reyes

by Giants15 on Dec 5, 2011 11:20 PM EST reply actions  

No to Pujols in Miami

Hey, don’t get me wrong, having what fantasy baseball would consider to be 3 of the top 5 or maybe 10 IF players on one team is impressive but I don’t see Pujols being the answer to the Marlins.

by mali on Dec 6, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

The upside on the Reyes deal is that he might play 140+ games per season. The size of his contract indicates teams were afraid of paying him due to injury concerns.

by EricW on Dec 6, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I sense there wil be a swarm of bandwagon fans coming

we should start a page for original marlins fans. A sight just to vent about fans who claim they have been “following” the marlins for a while. Everyone here right now are real fans. They have been through years of painful off seasons.

by Giants15 on Dec 6, 2011 1:43 AM EST reply actions  

There are Florida Marlins fans

and then the new breed of Miami Marlins fans. I’m just hoping we can manage to fill up the stadium for all of our home games.

by Marlinfan on Dec 6, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait a minute, I am a Miami Marlins fan and an original Florida Marlins fan (you can be both)

My old profile here used to be under my real name (a stupid thing on my part), which is why I took advantage of the Marlins name change to re-do my profile.

Been a real fan since 1996 (I was 11 years old then)

by Miami Marlins 2012 on Dec 6, 2011 1:50 AM EST up reply actions  

And I've been posting here even when there were only 3 or 4 of us commenting on the site

Which is sad considering how many members the other MLB teams have. Their game threads get hundreds of posts and ours only get 5-8 posts :(

by Miami Marlins 2012 on Dec 6, 2011 1:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I know, those were painful days indeed.

I’m just so excited for this season to get going. I havn’t heard anything about Wilson or Buehrle lately. Are we still strongly pursuing them or have we put all of our eggs into the pujols basket?

by Marlinfan on Dec 6, 2011 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

If we get Pujols, we can't afford anyone else

Unless you want us to trade Mike Stanton, Logan Morrison, and Gaby Sanchez in 2013.

If we stop at Pujols, we can retain Mike Stanton, but would have to eventually trade the other two. As long as we keep Mike Stanton I am happy. He has too much potential and we would be stupid to get ourselves in a situation where we have to let him go just when he is becoming a true monster.

If Pujols doesn’t come (most likely scenario) then we should be able to sign two good pitchers and have a little left over to possibly retain both Mike Stanton and Morrison in the future.

It’s all speculative, but logic tells us that Pujols and Reyes combined will take so much of our payroll that if we take anyone else we would be in danger of not even being able to retain Stanton in the future, which would leave us with an ageing team (Pujols and Reyes can only go downhill from here while Stanton still has upside potential).

by Miami Marlins 2012 on Dec 6, 2011 2:13 AM EST up reply actions  

He doesn't have a no-trade clause

Marlins haven’t given any no-trade clauses for multi-year deals.

by Michael Jong on Dec 6, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm so undecided Albert.

I want him real bad… just not for 10 years. I really dont think it’s worth it to destroy the core of the team to sign Pujols. We DON’T NEED him, we NEED another starting pitcher.
I guess I’m more decided than I thought.

by Marlinfan on Dec 6, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

A win is a win is a win

No matter where you get it from. If he’s a 3-4 win improvement over Sanchez, it’s equal to an addition of a pitcher. And that is before considering the return the Marlins get for Sanchez.

by Michael Jong on Dec 6, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Whats the latest with Cespedes?

Rather than signing Pujols could we get Cespedes and a starter?

by Marlinfan on Dec 6, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

You are right about 10 years

the marlins may have a geriatric team in 7 years

by Giants15 on Dec 7, 2011 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

It'll always be Florida to me.

GO:Gators, Dolphins, Heat, Marlins, and Yankees
he who fears losing, has already lost
FLORIDA Marlins Forever!

by Gatorfan4life on Dec 6, 2011 6:45 AM EST up reply actions  

You do not

under any circumstances trade Hanley. Just like you do everything in your power to make sure that Bonifacio is not an everyday starter. If they sign Pujols great the lineup just got that much better probably 3-4WAR at 1B and by keeping Hanley and letting him play 3rd probably 4-5WAR over the last couple of years. Think about that that is as many as 9 WAR combined just by adding two players. A full season from JJ adds 2 more, based on last years production this believe the Marlins under-performed last year. Too much thinking going on at this point to much concern about the imaginary future where nobody goes out to support a massive winner. This is not ’97 just a short time removed from losing a season and with an owner still pissed about not getting a stadium. Remember it was about midway through that ’97 season that Wayne decided that the money the stadium made from the Marlins was separate and not applied to the marlins operating expense. This is a new time and we do not know what will happen with a ballpark in the middle of a population center, with no rainouts, no 99 degree Sunday day games, and at least something that represents a public transport option. For every stadium failure there are successes, San Fran and Colorado come to mind,both rejuvenated an area similar to Little Havana and are considered to be beacons in their communities, there is that same opportunity here. I think if we are fans, as I claim to be, than we need to give them and their plan a chance. At least it seems as though they had one which is more than I had hoped coming into this thing, Go Phish

by DelrayRob on Dec 6, 2011 7:45 AM EST reply actions  

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