Fish Stripes Off-Topic Thread: Week of 12/13/11
by Michael Jong on Dec 13, 2011 2:13 PM EST
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PrintWe're introducing a new aspect to the Fish Stripes community today: weekly off-topic threads! The purpose of the off-topic thread is exactly what it says on the tin: this gives a place for Fish Stripes readers to comment on anything that is happening in the world of Miami Marlins baseball, baseball in general, or the world in general, without deviating from the topic at hand on the normal front-page posts.
This means that Fish Stripers have mostly free reign to take the topic of the off-topic thread wherever they would like. The comments need not pertain to anything in particular; indeed, I won't even suggest that you discuss the Marlins' next move in a series of rampant speculative posts at all! Just make sure you abide by the following rules:
- No political or religious discussion. Those are strictly against our community guidelines.
- Nothing that is NSFW (not safe for work). That includes pictures or links.
- If you upload pictures or GIFs, make sure you keep them small. Makes it easy on everyone's loading times.
- Remain cordial as you would be in the front-page threads. Think of this as a side conversation going on during a party at someone's house, Fish Stripes being the house. You still don't want to be rude while at someone else's house, even if you're off in the corner joking about that guy's tacky decor.
Otherwise, have fun and get to know each other, since we're going to be hanging out over the Internets for a long, but exciting, 2012 season. Feel free to post links that you see around the net about interesting stuff, Marlins-related or otherwise. Enjoy! Talk amongst yourselves now.
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Just be careful when this guy’s around:
He don’t take kindly.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Dec 13, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
By the way, that's an example of the size that you guys should use
for pictures.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Dec 13, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
If that’s the prize I’m a little afraid of asking what I need to do to win it.
Or, imagine, being able to be magically whisked away to... Delaware. Hi. I'm in Delaware.
Nothing at all
The front office will just give you this award. It doesn’t even really matter if the name on the back is right.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Dec 13, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
You need to make saves a lot more interesting...
And play under a secret identity. Maybe Leo Nunez was Dominican for Clark Kent?
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
What does everyone think of the Ryan Braun suspension?
I really don’t know what to make of it. I think it’s still too early to make any rash judgements. I’m curious to see what others around here think.
Or, imagine, being able to be magically whisked away to... Delaware. Hi. I'm in Delaware.
Meh....
First, I want to see what the “unique” and “mitigating” circumstances are.
Secondly, even if he is guilty… who cares? He broke the rules, he serves his time, and life goes on. I find myself irritated with people who think that Jose Canseco was the first baseball player to use Performance Enhancing Drugs. Steroids and other PEDs have been around for about 80 years, and thinking that only this most recent generation of players thought to make use of them is both naive and demonstrably false.
So, I think that it’s a shame, but Braun (if guilty) will serve his suspension and resume his career.
Totally agreed on this
The world of baseball should stop being so up in arms about the “moral indignation” of steroids. It happened, and now he does his time and everyone moves on. Let’s not discuss the “legacy” or the “tarnish” on the MVP trophy due to this, because in time a lot of people will forget. No one cares who the MVP is in any given season. For example, no one is crying foul about the atrocity of the 1996 MVP season that Ken Caminiti had. Occasionally it gets mentioned, but like most of these awards, it fades into obscurity.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Dec 13, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
It just gets me that..
Players KNOW the rule and still choose to break it. I think the MVP should go to the 2nd highest vote getter. Breaking the rules = DQ in my book. Either enforce the rule and make consequences, or make it legal. MLB is half-assing it.
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
To clarify my position...
I believe MLB needs to deal with this situation eventually. They don’t want to tackle it head on because they know the implications. Either PEDs are ok or they’re not. If they’re not, then everyone that has been proven to take them has cheated and therefore deserves a lifetime ban ala Pete Rose or the Black Sox. If we grandfather it and take a firmer stance STARTING NOW, then players such as Pete Rose who simply made a mistake need to be forgiven and actual zero tolerance enforced from this point forward. If we simply tolerate it, then we’re sending a message to the youth of America that look up to these guys that cheating and doping up are ok. If Braun is guilty, in my mind, he SHOULD be stripped of MVP. Anyone know of Jim Thorpe? Got stripped of his gold medals in the 1912 Olympics because it was found out he played minor-league ball. Made a mistake, but got stipped anyways because he broke the rules. Since it was an honest mistake, the men who won silver in those events refused to claim the medals. My personal stance is to start anew. Players get a blank slate, but from here on in, it’s zero tolerance. No more “I didn’t know” to cop out on.
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
And to further clarify...
I know the Player’s Union would push back on this. Doesn’t make them right.
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Gambling is not Steroids
The damage done by gambling is so far beyond what steroids is capable that there is no point of comparison.
I don't understand...
If you’re referring to the Black Sox, I agree (mostly). As far as Pete Rose, didn’t he bet on his own team to win? Wasn’t like he was throwing the game. And when I said mostly for the Black Sox, the numbers show that some of them didn’t participate in the throw (although keeping quiet about it wasn’t good). My question is, how is betting on yourself to win potentially damaging? Isn’t that what you’re trying to do anyways?
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
I guess my real question is...
What makes one form of rule-breaking more harmless than another? Athletes need to be held accountable. Like it or not, they are role models. It’s part and parcel to those millions they collect. Their fame puts them under a constant microscope, which sucks, but it’s the life they sign up for.
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
Pete Rose.
“What makes one form of rule-breaking more harmless than another?” Perspective. That’s like asking why running a red light is different than running over 37 pedestrians.
The distinction you have for Rose is that he didn’t bet on his own team. What makes you think that’s true, and what does it matter? Rose bet on games that he had the ability to influence.
He did not bet the same amount on every game he played, so it stands to reason that his approach to a game would be altered based on how much he bet. That, in and of itself is a fundamental undermining of the integrity of the game. Not of HR stats, not of awards balloting, of. the. game. itself.
Even putting that aside, who’s to say that Rose did not approach the opposing team. A key player, an equipment manager, an umpire, a trainer… someone who might be able to help Rose win a bet for his own team? It doesn’t matter then who Rose is betting on, the game is still compromised.
Gambling is a cancer to competitive sports. The reason we all enjoy sports is that we take for granted the underlying fact that no one knows how a game is going to come out. Everyone is playing win. Without that, sports are equivalent to reality TV at best, equivalent to the WWE at worst.
I brought Pete into it because...
I was basically asking where we draw the line. Both things are wrong. From what I gathered, Pete would bet on his Reds to win every time. I don’t know about any behind the scenes influence, but it’s possible the size of his wager could have been based on the quality of his opponent.
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 8:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Zero tolerance on steroids?
The problem with your Jim Thorpe example is that there is a clear delineation of what is OK, and what is not. There is no change in how one gets paid to play sports, so Jim Thorp either got paid, or he did not.
Doping is not so cut and dry. Some substances are currently banned and covered in the MLB testing policy, but new doping methods are coming up all the time. So, Braun gets caught and banned forever… but say someone has been using HGH for their entire career, and retires before the HGH test goes into effect. Both Braun and this other person cheated, but Braun never gets to play baseball, and the other doper gets to go into the Hall of Fame.
But HGH testing isn’t the end either. There are substances invented and yet to be invented that are either not covered or undetectable. Someone using them is also “cheating” in the same way, but they escape the ban, too. When someone figures out than substance X enhances performance, it gets banned, but players using that substance get grandfathered in, and there’s a zero tolerance policy for that, too and the cycle repeats.
Baseball can and should punish players caught violating the rules, but banning everyone caught violating a substance abuse ban is not going to stop people from doping, and it will only catch and punish those who were not at the cutting edge.
Personally, I would rather see Ryan Braun in the league rather than out, his mistakes not withstanding.
I'm not saying don't keep him in the league...
I’m just saying he shouldn’t keep MVP if steroids helped inflate his performance. And those that get caught should be punished. Just because you’re on the cutting edge doesn’t mean you’re not trying to cheat the system. Being caught is the risk you take. Once a substance is banned, that should be it. Good for you if you got away with it, but if you continue using something you know full well is banned, you should be punished. To me, it’s about the spirit of the game.
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 8:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My point with Jim Thorpe was...
Knowingly violating the rules vs unknowingly doing so. I was saying that if Thorpe can still be punished for an honest mistake to protect the integrity of the Olympic games, why shouldn’t those that do it on purpose face the music?
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 8:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I am not opposed to removing awards.
I would have no problem seeing the MLB and BBWAA decide the you are ineligible for awards and honors (MVP, All-Star, etc.) for any season that you run afoul the PED ban. It wouldn’t take Braun’s MVP award, but if he were up for it next year, he would be ineligible.
My points are that PEDs are not as cut and dry as, say, amateur status nor is it as inherently corrosive as gambling, which deserves a zero tolerance policy. I think that if you’re not fundamentally undermining the game, you deserve at least a second chance. Saying one positive test equals a lifetime ban is an unfair and ultimately untenable stance.
by Jigokusabre on Dec 13, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
MVP
Does not belong to the MLB, it belongs on the BBWAA, so the MLB cannot take it away as a punitive measure. Now… if the BBWAA were to declare that “going forward, anyone caught violating substance abuse rules loses their MVP,” I might be OK with that.
Good call...
I forgot it was a BBWAA award. guess I was more thinking about the Hall of Fame when I wrote.
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
The BBWAA also does Hall of Fame voting
I’m hoping the old guard of the BBWAA goes away in the next 15 years.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Dec 13, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, I suck at life...
Guess there isn’t much more that MLB itself can actually do… These writers seem to have all the power. Lol
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
As far as steroids go...
I don’t care. Not one person here can tell me steroids didn’t bring back baseball.
The McGuire-Sosa Home Run race was awesome.
Recently converted Marlins Fan
Follow me @Terrence_Hunley
by Terrence Hunley on Dec 13, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
Who says we couldn’t have had a home run race without steroids? Steroids effect on performance is overblown, anyway. It was a contributing factor in the rise in offense, but not the only reason (and I’m not even sure it qualifies as the primary reason).
Two blogs about baseball: Fish Stripes and Catch-28.
All it does is add a black eye to a sport that has already endured more than its share of bruises
In other words, more than likely he’ll serve his 50 game suspension and all will eventually be forgotten.
by d.o.g.o.b.g.y.n. on Dec 13, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
What's UP?!?
The fish still need another pitcher and at least one strong left handed bat. Is there anything on the horizon, or are we set as far as the roster goes?
by FLORIDA Marlin Fan on Dec 13, 2011 5:42 PM EST reply actions
…and why is the blog posted based on Pacific Standard Time?!? Aren’t we Eastern Time Zone?!?
by FLORIDA Marlin Fan on Dec 13, 2011 5:43 PM EST reply actions
Is anybody else watching Clubhouse Confidential on MLB Network?
Because it’s maybe the best baseball TV program I’ve ever seen. The saber slant is presented in a very digestible manner, the topics are diverse (read: not focused only on the Red Sox and Yankees), and Brian Kenny is a very engaging presenter. It’s far from perfect, but I’ve started DVR’ing it regularly, and I definitely recommend it to everyone on the site.
I've watched bits and pieces
and it has been very good. Kenny doesn’t just come out and start throwing out big words. He does a decent job of explaining the stats. And yeah, I’ve always liked his presentation work too, he was a favorite of mine on ESPN Radio. They picked the right guy for the job, that’s for sure.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Dec 13, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
I saw an episode
I like the idea of bringing advanced statistics into MLBN programming. This was my first time seeing the host and I was not a fan of him, his presentation seemed a little too dramatic for my taste.
Maybe he’ll grow on me if I keep watching.
kinda like how I’m not a fan of Jim Rome, but all my friends that have listened to his radio show love him and his TV show, being exposed to him more might lead to more an appreciation.
http://baseballperiod.blogspot.com/
Brian Kenny is better than Jim Rome
but yeah, that’s part of how they make the show more “interesting,” by adding somewhat unnecessary flare. Still solid, and a whole hell of a lot better than listening to Steve Phillips or Harold Reynolds speak.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Dec 13, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, how I wish Philips hadn't been fired in '03...
he had a few decent moves leading up to their WS appearance in 2000 but swung and missed more often than not.
Or, imagine, being able to be magically whisked away to... Delaware. Hi. I'm in Delaware.
Steve Phillips
Every time he opens his mouth, I’m afraid something like this will come out of his mouth
Recently converted Marlins Fan
Follow me @Terrence_Hunley
by Terrence Hunley on Dec 13, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
How about we do a roll call
Something along the lines of
Name: Terrence
Age: 22
Location: Amarillo Texas
Occupation: Sports Writer
Why are you a Marlins fan?: Jose Reyes
Obviously any question can be left off if you feel necessary. I’d just like to get a feel for who is a frequenter of fishstripes
Recently converted Marlins Fan
Follow me @Terrence_Hunley
by Terrence Hunley on Dec 13, 2011 8:07 PM EST reply actions
Ok, I'll play...
Name: Jeremy
Age: 32
Location: Groton, CT
Occupation: Nuclear Technician in US Navy
Why I’m a Marlins fan: Born in Fort Pierce, FL. Didn’t live in FL much cause of dad in Navy, but he was born and raised in FL. Was a Padres fan until FL got a team.
Marlins in the off-season. Get some... Free agents, that is.
by marlinsfan315 on Dec 13, 2011 8:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Name: Andrew
Age: 17
Location: FL
Occupation: Student
Why are you a Marlins fan?: I watched part of the 2003 WS despite not caring about baseball, I didn’t really start to follow the sport too closely till mid-2007 when I was stuck in a cabin with nothing to do and it was rainy, so I turned on a tv and found some baseball to watch…no marlins games were on, but I still had that somewhat of a connection to them.
http://baseballperiod.blogspot.com/
Name: Eric
Age: 24
Location: Wisconsin (only when I have to be, I’m a nomad at heart)
Occupation: student
I’m a Marlins fan because of the ’97 World Series. I was 11 and I remember staying up past my bedtime watching those games… good times.
Would be walk-up music: Song 2 – Blur
Or, imagine, being able to be magically whisked away to... Delaware. Hi. I'm in Delaware.
Name: Patrick
Age: 16
Location: Los Angeles
Occupation: student
I grew up in Miami and have been a marlins fan through everything. Key moment for me was spending my years worth of saved up money for game 5 of the world series in 2003
by Pepsidude95 on Dec 14, 2011 1:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Name: Osley
Age: 26
Location: Miami Lakes, Florida
Occupation: Legal Assistant / 3L law student
I’ve been a Marlins fan ever since I came to the US. As a Cuban-American baseball has always been in my blood, and I became hooked on the Marlins ever since I went to my first Marlins game 15 years ago.
by Miami Marlins 2012 on Dec 14, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Name: Robert
Age: 30
Location: Seattle
Occupation: Website Tech Support
When I became a fan: 1993
Why I’m a fan: Wanted to support a team from the very beginning.
Not to sound too morbid but...
With Loria in his early 70’s, one has to wonder if he knows that when this organization comes crashing down, he may not be around to see it happen. I just wonder who will be there to pick up the pieces? Who inherits the Marlins. I sure hope it isn’t Sampson.
I hope Loria lives a very long life, but I do wonder whose hands the club will be in….
by Dennis the Marlin on Dec 14, 2011 8:58 AM EST reply actions
He’ll probably be forced to sell the team before he kicks the bucket. Either that or Samson will inherit the team and sell it. Call me crazy but I don’t see Samson being able to pretend on a long-term basis that he’s cut out to be a team owner.
by d.o.g.o.b.g.y.n. on Dec 14, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I'm afraid of....
We all know what Samson is worth. I have a terrible feeling Loria will be found wanting at the end of this investigation……..
by Dennis the Marlin on Dec 14, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly
I gotta say I like what’s happened with this blog. I’ve been following it for years and it’s never been this active in the offseason. Good job Michael for bringing us all together!
by Pepsidude95 on Dec 14, 2011 10:21 AM EST via mobile reply actions
The Marlins are rarely this active in the offseason.
Not to say that the change has not been positive.. but there was some good timing, too.
by Jigokusabre on Dec 14, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
I actually responded to that article on Twitter
and Rosenthal let me know that he did not like my response. To be fair, his potential trades were just awful.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Dec 15, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, his trades were insane
especially the ones he proposed for dealing Ramirez to the Red Sox and Nationals. Why even mention Scutaro and Desmond as potential returns. Is he forgetting the Reyes signing? Or maybe either of them could push him in Spring Training for the starting job?
As bad as his potential trades are it’s the end of the article that really gets me with this brilliant line:
My complete list includes nearly 20 teams. And trust me, many of them would jump if the Marlins made Ramirez available.
So basically the entire league would be interested in Ramirez if he were on the market? Tell us something we don’t already know.
Or, imagine, being able to be magically whisked away to... Delaware. Hi. I'm in Delaware.
I’d also second the appreciation of how good this blog has become. Great discussion, and very informative posts. Looking forward to talking to you all during the fun times ahead.
As long as you are not a Mets fan you are ok in my book ;)
Anyway, how do you manage to hang on to being a Marlins fan too when you live in a place that’s all about the Phillies. I mean, Phillies fans are not exactly tolerant of other fans.
by Miami Marlins 2012 on Dec 15, 2011 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
Believe me, it hasn’t been easy! The funny thing is, I play music at a bar down at the ballpark during the season, all the while wearing a Marlins shirt secretly under an overshirt. I rebel when I can! Other than that…watch a lot of games at home and avoid the sports bars:)
by guitarist416 on Dec 15, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
What about former Mets fans?
Recently converted Marlins Fan
Follow me @Terrence_Hunley
by Terrence Hunley on Dec 15, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Roll Call
Name: Mark
Age: 37
Location: Pensacola, FL
When I became a Marlins’ fan: 2006 when I moved to Pensacola, and I started watching Marlins games on FSN Florida. Tommy Hutton and Rich Waltz are very good reporters – always enthusiastic; always pro-Marlins; always informative and interesting. I’ll miss the Florida moniker, but Go Marlins!
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