Fish Stripes Offseason Success Plan: Mike Stanton's Extension
Yesterday, I introduced everyone to my Fish Stripes Plan for Offseason Success, including the points that needed to be addressed in order for the Marlins to have a successful offseason leading to a hopefully contending 2012. Now, most fans probably want the Marlins to aggressively pursue the big free agent names on the market, and it is not as if the team should not do that to an extent. But I feel as though the biggest move the team could make to secure their long-term success is a move that involves no new acquisitions. It would be a move not to secure a player from another organization, but one that has quickly risen within the ranks of this organization.
Of course, I'm talking about Giancarlo Cruz-Michael Stanton.
1. Sign Mike Stanton to a multi-year extension which purchases two or three free agent seasons.
This is the most important part of this year's offseason, and it involves only locking up a player who should become a major part of the team's future for the long haul. It is a move that benefits both sides greatly. It is a move that will make a future star very happy. It is a move that will make the team's future secure at a beneficial cost. And perhaps most importantly of all, it is a move that would receive widespread approval from the team's fan base. This move would be a sign that the Marlins ownership is ready to invest in the team after years of frugal spending, and the bitter Marlins fan base may finally accept begin to trust again after seeing one of their best locked up so early in his career. In short, this move is a necessity on all fronts.
The Cabrera ComparisonI have made this argument numerous times, but it is worth elaborating and updating. The comparisons between Mike Stanton and former Marlins young star Miguel Cabrera are quite astonishing.
| Player | PA | AVG | OBP | SLG | wOBA | fWAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mike Stanton | 998 | .261 | .344 | .525 | .369 | 7.3 |
| Miguel Cabrera | 1031 | .285 | .352 | .497 | .361 | 4.1 |
What is even scarier is that Stanton has actually been better than Cabrera through his age-21 season. At the time, it was already appearing as if Cabrera was misplaced as anything other than a first baseman, but it took years (and a lot of pounds gained) before his team figured out his bad defense. Stanton, on the other hand, is far from being an immobile outfielder. In fact, various defensive statistics have Stanton contributing between three and 20 (!) runs above average this season on defense, with an average estimate of 11 runs saved over the average right fielder this year. In addition, Marlins have voted on Tom Tango's Fans Scouting Report, and they have placed Stanton as the fourth-best right fielder in baseball. Similarly, the Fielding Bible just completed their voting and claimed that Stanton was the third-best right fielder.
And that does not mention the fact that Stanton actually outhit Cabrera in those years as well, despite both players coming up at the same age. Not only does Stanton's power and above average OBP outstrip Cabrera's 2003-2004 performance, it actually is even more impressive given the fact that the run environment in baseball right now is significantly lower than it was in early 2000's. In 2003-2004, the average National League team scored 4.62 runs per game, and the average hitter batted .263/.333/.420. In 2010-2011, those numbers have dropped to 4.23 runs per game and .254/.321/.394. In other words, not only did Stanton hit better than Cabrera, but he also did it in a much tougher environment to hit, making his accomplishments stand out even further.
Thus, it is fair to say that Stanton has actually thoroughly outperformed Miguel Cabrera -- one of the best hitters in Marlins history -- in his first two seasons. As we all know, Cabrera went on to become much better and is now a perennial powerhouse in the league. Is it safe to say that Stanton too will develop into a world-class hitter?
The Strikeout Concerns
Well, Stanton still maintains one flaw that may hold him back: his strikeouts. FanGraphs' Eno Sarris tackled this topic today:
The third year is the one that’s most interesting to us, since that would be Stanton’s 2012 season. The [group of players with 25 percent or greater strikeout rates and .200 or better ISO in their rookie year) improved once again — to 24.39%, or another 7% relative to their rookie year...
... If Stanton were to fall back to the group and improve 7%, he would show a strikeout rate of 25.4% next year. If he continued to outpace the group, he might get the number down to 24.2%. Both of those numbers are better, but not great: the first would have been tenth-worst among qualified batters last year, the second 14th-worst.
Sarris brings up a good point; Stanton's strikeouts have improved, but not significantly enough that they should bail him out in the future. But here is the money comp that should make Marlins fans feel good.
Ryan Howard might be our best comp for the young Marlin. Howard has a 14.9% swinging strike rate for his career and debuted with a 28.7% strikeout rate, with 10.5% improvement from his rookie to second years. All those numbers look remarkably like Stanton’s — and the two share elite power.
He later goes on to mention Johnny Gomes as a potential downside for Stanton, but Gomes only once sustained the sort of success Stanton has shown in two seasons at the plate, and Gomes never had the additional talent in the outfield to be a regular. Marlins fans will still have to wait and see with regards to Stanton's strikeouts, but with two seasons and almost 1000 PA under his belt, it seems at least likely that Stanton improves slightly going forward. It should be additionally noted that this is Stanton's only flaw on offense, which is why his total player package is so intriguing.
The Precedent
The proof for why Stanton should receive an extension is there. But the question is what precedent does the team have for such an extension? The Marlins never signed Cabrera long-term; what makes you think they will sign Stanton?
The answer is the player whom they did sign long-term: Hanley Ramirez.
| Year | Status | Salary (millions) |
|---|---|---|
| 2009 | Arb 1 | $5 |
| 2010 | Arb 2 | $7 |
| 2011 | Arb 3 | $11 |
| 2012 | Free Agent | $15 |
| 2013 | Free Agent | $15.5 |
| 2014 | Free Agent | $16 |
This is the contract that to which the Marlins signed Ramirez midway through the 2008 season -- Ramirez's final pre-arbitration season. Given that the team at that point already knew that Ramirez was a superstar player, his "arbitration" salaries were very low; in contrast, Cabrera earned $7.4 million in his first arbitration-eligible season. If the Marlins could entice Stanton to accept a similar offer to the one Ramirez received, both sides could benefit.
The Contract
Why would both sides benefit from a deal? Stanton gets long-term security; regardless of how well he plays, the Marlins will be paying him through the end of the deal. The Marlins receive a discount, not only of the arbitration seasons, but also in any free agent years that the team buys out.
The key to this move is to accomplish it as early as possible. The earlier the Marlins pull the trigger on an extension, the easier it is to secure Stanton's agreement and the easier it is to get lower prices on those higher-paid years. If the Marlins wait a season or two longer, Stanton might have already established himself too much to get a deal akin to Ramirez's. If the Marlins extend him this offseason, those prices are attainable given Stanton's status as a guy who has yet to achieve strong success.
What is a good comparison for a possible Stanton contract? Look no further than Milwaukee's Ryan Braun.
| Year | Status | Salary (millions) |
|---|---|---|
| 2008 | Pre-Arb | $.45 |
| 2009 | Pre-Arb | $1 |
| 2010 | Pre-Arb | $1.2 |
| 2011 | Arb 1 | $4 |
| 2012 | Arb 2 | $6 |
| 2013 | Arb 3 | $8.5 |
| 2014 | Free Agent | $10 |
| 2015 | Free Agent | $12 |
Following his very successful second rookie season with Milwaukee, Braun signed an eight-year extension that covered two free agent seasons. The third pre-arbitration season was to increase in value in case he qualified for Super 2 status, which he eventually did not. This contract mirrors a cheaper version of Ramirez's deal during arbitration, and the free agent years were bought out so early that Braun was willing to go cheap.
This is exactly the sort of contract the Marlins could sign to Stanton. Let us assume Stanton will make Super 2 status, even though this is no guarantee. Here is how an extension could look like.
| Year | Status | Salary (millions) |
|---|---|---|
| 2012 | Pre-Arb | $1 |
| 2013 | Arb 1 | $5 |
| 2014 | Arb 2 | $8 |
| 2015 | Arb 3 | $10 |
| 2016 | Arb 4 | $12 |
| 2017 | Free Agent | $14 |
| 2018 | Free Agent | $14 |
This extension very closely mirrors the changes that would have occurred in Braun's contract had he qualified for Super 2 status. This deal signs Stanton for seven years and $64 million, locking him up through two free agent seasons and making him a Marlin through age 29. It is a perfect fit for both sides; if Stanton somehow falters, he still gets that money. If he performs as the Marlins expect him to perform, they will be getting his services at a ridiculously low price. If the "Ryan Howard with Gold-Glove outfield defense" description holds true, Stanton could easily be a 7-WAR player during his peak years, while the team would be paying him around $10 million.
The Fans Win
The final additional benefit to a contract like this is the morale boost that this would give the fan base. The Marlins ownership has never earned the trust of the fans, and a move like this would be a step in the right direction. The team can finally afford to make this sort of extension that other small-market teams often use to their advantage. The club's purse is now large enough that they can risk the loss in case Stanton doesn't develop as well. Extending a young star like him buys the team renewed credibility with a disenfranchised fan base that is jaded about everything the team does. It establishes a player who will bring continuity to the Marlins at a time when they will need it most.
While that may have been a long ride through the reasoning behind a Stanton extension, it will certainly be enjoyable if the Fish end up achieving this primary goal. What say you, fellow Fish Stripers? Is this deal reasonable, and can it happen? I, for one, certainly hope so.
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to the point about strikeouts...
interesting since I believe he uses such a light bat just to get the bat around quicker and “catch up to the pitch”. I’ve always wondered if he’d develop to where he can use a heavier bat. and if thus does happen, how does that affect his power?
truly worth it though. I’ve never seen the ball come off a bat like that, even on grounders. he hits it harder than any player in the league when he makes contact.
I’ve already thought for a while to sign this kid fast. I’m glad you’ve made it a focal point of your offseason plan.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 3, 2011 6:34 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
Good points
But don’t you think his agent will be asking for more at the back end of the contract? $14 million is pretty good right now for an elite player. Remember, St. Louis last off season signed a reclamation project – Lance Berkman- to an $8 million dollar deal…and they were ridiculed for paying so much for a broken down shell of a former great man that not much was expected from. So $14 million 7-8 years down the road may not be even close to in the ball park – and I’m sure his agent (who is that lucky guy?) knows that.
And would he, then (hopefully) an elite player, want to still be behind (in $) the shortstop who doesn’t have anywhere near the same power?
by FLORIDA Marlin Fan on Nov 3, 2011 9:15 PM EDT reply actions
Here's the thing
He gives up a little bit in the future for guarantee. If he tanks, he still gets that money. It’s the price for security. And from the above examples, it seems like players are more than willing to pay for that security. Braun had two very good seasons (8 Wins Above Replacement in total) and took a very team-friendly deal that paid him $12 million in his second free agent year. Ramirez did the same, taking $16 million at the end of his deal when he could have easily been worth $23 million.
(Side note: Don’t sell Ramirez short either. There’s obviously a lot of other things he does better than Stanton. One example: he plays shortstop.)
Players will take these large deals because it sets them up for life. It secures their future while securing the team’s future as well. That’s why typically they are win-wins. Given the historical precedence for such a move, I would feel pretty confident that the Marlins will be able to pull a deal within $4-5 million (down or up) of the proposed one in the article.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Nov 3, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Great write-up.
You back up your points wonderfully. While I disagreed with you on the extension prior to reading this, because I didn’t feel it was necessary to try to extend a guy who basically had no choice but stay with the team for the next 4-5 years anyway, I now understand the reasoning behind it, and agree.
8 Years for $65Million is awful cheap for a player with potential to become a legitimate superstar.
Founder of the "Rob Ryan for Head Coach" Bandwagon.
Assistant Janitor of the Luckfleet
Part of that is because of the team control years
He would have earned a lot more in arbitration, but if the Marlins sign him now, they’ll get those years a lot cheaper, like they did with Ramirez. The free agent years are the ones that are truly on discount.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Nov 3, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
my gut says...
…this is 1A for the Marlins. Or, perhaps more precisely, Alternative 1.
As much as we may laugh about it, I think nabbing one of the Pujols/Fielder/Reyes trio is absolutely atop Loria’s agenda. Obviously there are also many reasons why it won’t end up making financial sense. I think at that point, they will give serious consideration to a Stanton extension as a big splash/show of faith.
I also think they are (rightly) wary enough about gates three and four years down the road that they won’t do both, shying away from putting too much money on the books before getting a better idea of how the finances look inside the new stadium.
Marlins Stadium: When It's Raining, The Roof Will Happen!
Great point Dan
If they really do go for a big 3 name, I’m all for it. I just don’t think it’s in the cards for them to nab one of them realistically. I do think it’s much more doable to extend Stanton like this.
And yes, they probably don’t want to do both.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
by Michael Jong on Nov 3, 2011 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Still have aproblem with those three
What do we do with Reyes? Put him at short, then what with Ramierez? Trade him? Second? Third? Will that make him happy? Reyes is not a good fit for this team, not to mention his legitamate health questions.
Fielder is ONLY first base, while Pujols is a gold glove first baseman. Pujols to third? Left?
Fielder is attractive but causes an even larger log jam of out of position first basemen.
Pujols could fit at third, but what would be his incentive to come here at a new (old) position, on a team that doesn’t have a realistic shot of winning the World Series? For that matter, why would Fielder come here? BOTH will be a major pieces for major contenders, not superstars on a team going nowhere, even if it is in a new stadium.
If those three are at the top of Loria’s agenda, then we’re in trouble because none of those guys address our biggest issue – pitching. Currently we have two starters – Sanchez and Nolasco. And I’m not sure Nolasco can show the consistancy to be other than a third or fourth starter. Johnson? When he’s healthy he’s a top tier pitcher, one of the five best in the league in my opinion. However, that’s when he’s healthy, which was a very short portion of the season last year, and the year before, etc. We NEED starting pitching. One, two, maybe even three pitchers. Trade, free agency, or from within. We have to get this done, even if they can talk Vasquez would be nice, but I would not hold my breath based on Guillen and Vasquez’s prior relationship with the White Sox.
by FLORIDA Marlin Fan on Nov 4, 2011 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions
pitching is definitely the biggest issue...
…except for hitting and fielding. But besides those two, definitely pitching was the problem the problem.
Marlins Stadium: When It's Raining, The Roof Will Happen!
Stanton's Contract Projection
2011 is his first full season. So, if he makes super 2 case, he’s going to be arbitration eligible from 2013 to 2016 instead of from 2014 to 2017. isn’t it?
Yes, you are correct. Contract will be fixed.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
Contract and table fixed. Deal is now seven years and $64 million. Still very good
Thanks for the correction.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
Nolasco trade?
michael-
what do you have on a Nolasco trade?
i think it could be used to restock our minor league system as well as provide an extra 8 million dollars to the free agent spending pool. there are a lot of low risk/ high reward options of the free agent market who could replace him for cheap… (Chris Young, Joel Piniero)
However, I would only accept this if we extend stanton and trade for shields and/or gonzalez.
also, I saw someone who proposed converting rich harden into a relief pitcher. He’s another guy who we could get for cheap.
how do you think he would do in the closing role?
I'm a big fan of Harden
I think he has to be a reliever at this point, but he wouldn’t a bad low-rent pickup. Keep an eye out for him.
As for trading Nolasco, at this point he has underperformed so badly that he holds more value to the team than to others in trade. The Marlins may be better off hoping for a strong return after four straight seasons of above average peripherals rather than selling at his absolute lowest.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
As far as Nolasco...
I’d say put him in the bullpen. From what I can tell of his pitching style, he is loath to give up walks and paint the corners of the strike zone. Maybe in a setup type role, he may shine as the objective would be to mow down the batters. Strikeouts are good, but makes a pitch count soar pretty quickly.
Miami Marlins? Don't know if I'm ready. Seems like saying goodbye to an old friend.
by marlinsfan315 on Nov 4, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Extending Mikey makes sense....
Going after one of the “Big 3” does not, at least not to me. First off, look at it from the player’s point of view. Pujols just won the World Series and Fielder made it to the NLCS. How excited would they be to sign a deal with a team that isn’t generally considered to be a contender? I would say that a player’s price would be inversely proportional to perceived decency of a team. Basically meaning that they’d be willing to take a little less to play for a known winner, but they’d probably want more to go to a team that in their mind doesn’t have much of a chance. And if we/re honest with ourselves, the Marlins are gonna have to sweeten the deal a little more than, say, the Phillies would.
Second, we should look at how well they fit with the team. I don’t believe Reyes is a good idea. We’ve locked both Ramirez and Infante to long term deals so where would Reyes play? With his speed, he could probably have good range as a center fielder, but does he possess the glove/arm? Fielder and Pujols are both “all or nothing” type of hitters from what I can tell. Mikey is kind of the same way, I think. Would it be good to have more than one in the lineup? Prince would provide power from the left side so maybe that’s a plus.
Overall, I’m thinking lock up Stanton, perhaps make an offer to Prince, but not too much to allow no flexibility in the budget. Personally, I’m thinking Pujols and Fielder are out of reach. And as it’s been mentioned before, we need to address starting pitching too. We don’t need a super stellar pitcher as much as we need one that can eat innings. I’d prefer a 2-3 run pitcher that can take a game consistantly into the 8th or 9th, versus a 0-1 run pitcher that needs to come out after 5 or 6.
Miami Marlins? Don't know if I'm ready. Seems like saying goodbye to an old friend.
Well Infante is here for 2 years
If the team acquires Reyes, they would move Ramirez if anyone, since he’s the worst defender of the three. 3B/CF are options.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy
Maybe, but...
Hanley can get prima donna sometimes, so I’m not sure if moving him is a good idea. Sure, he might just have to suck it up for the team eventually, but that’s not typically one of his strong suits. Especially since Samson pretty much publicly declared him to be “his guy”.
Miami Marlins? Don't know if I'm ready. Seems like saying goodbye to an old friend.
by marlinsfan315 on Nov 4, 2011 6:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Also, this may be a stupid question...
But on many sites, this included, I’ve seen stats posted like this: .xxx/.yyy/.zzz. My question is what exactly are x, y and z? Batting average? On-base percentage? Slugging? I’ve always been to chicken to ask before, but since we seem to be starting anew, I figured now was the time. Lol
Miami Marlins? Don't know if I'm ready. Seems like saying goodbye to an old friend.
I'm always a proponent of asking questions
It’s the only way to build knowledge! And yes, the traditional “triple-slash” is batting average / OBP / slugging. On this site, that is what it will always mean.
Fish Stripes, a Florida Marlins blog
Author, Baseball Prospectus Fantasy























