Marlins upset with Renyel Pinto
by craig on Feb 18, 2010 6:54 PM EST
in News and Rumors
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Renyel Pinto has the Marlins front office a bit peeved.
The Marlins are irritated with Renyel Pinto, who will be disciplined for missing FanFest, but haven't found value for him in a trade.
Every year, it seems, some player(s) misses FanFest, though all required to attend. It is in their contract. Most of the time when they don't show it is due to visa problems. In Pinto's case, the reason given for him not attending has yet to be released. He may still be working on his excuse. But whatever the case, I can't imagine there were hundreds of kids lined up in Pinto jerseys only to be reduced to tears when he didn't show. However, I could be wrong about that.
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Why would you cut a solid left-handed reliever?
I understand you don’t like the guy, but he’s been an effective major-league pitcher for four consecutive seasons, which is more than you can say for a lot of middle relievers. He’s walk-prone, but he strikes out a lot of men, doesn’t allow a lot of hits, and gives up virtually no home runs.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
False.
Pinto, who got $1,075,000, is 8-10 with a 3.70 ERA in four seasons in Florida. He was 4-1 with a 3.23 ERA in 2009.
The guys numbers are only somewhat respectable because he is looked at as a situational pitcher – he doesn’t start an inning most of the time and comes in to face guys with poor numbers against lefties. Thus his numbers are misleading.
Assuming his appearances are 1 full inning at a time, every 2 appearances he makes, he gives up a run THAT HE LET ON BASE. I could care less how that runner scores, be it home run, or steals every base after a bunt single.
He has a career WHIP around 2 (walks + hits in innings pitched). Last year it was 1.81 (53 Hits, 48 Walks). That’s terrible for a situational lefty. Terrible.
Of course, being the Marlins defense of the last few seasons, his ERA doesn’t count the runners who got on due to errors when he was on the mound (that just gets them on base 99/100, not get them around the bases).
He was the 258th Ranked RELIEVER last year based on all numbers numbers.
His Inherited Runners Scored hovers around 40%.
He is anything but solid.
I tend to look at OPS allowed as a means of judging middle/situational relievers.
And by that metric, which doesn’t exactly favor him — it penalizes him for essentially meaningless walks — he’s always been very solid. Almost identical to Dan Meyer, who filled a very similar role, last year.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
And by the way
The WHIP numbers you’re posting are way off. His career WHIP is 1.46, and last year’s was 1.59.
Which certainly doesn’t look good, but WHIP is a measure basically DESIGNED to make pitchers like Pinto look bad — it counts walks as equal to hits, doesn’t reward him for not giving up extra-base hits, and of course has nothing to do with his strikeout rate.
I haven’t checked any of the other numbers you came up with.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
What do you mean by meaningless walks?
And pinto’s an interesting case for sure… In his career righties have a 15% line drive rate against him which explains the low average, but really how sustainable is that? And unless he as some sort of powers that make him pitch out of the stretch better I’d imagine his high LOB% is gonna come down as well. And if we haven’t found a trade partner for him yet that most likely means other teams know he’s not as good as his ERA.
I'm not too sure of that.
What I mean by “essentially meaningless walks” is, I don’t particularly care if Pinto walks a guy with 2 outs and nobody on first. Walks aren’t going to drive in runs. That guy on first needs two more men on base or an extra-base hit before he can score.
And Pinto is very good at not allowing extra-base hits. (Also, very good at not allowing hits in general, but specifically the extra-base variety.) Last year, he allowed a .348 slugging percentage to opposing hitters. This doesn’t necessarily seem flukey to me either, either — his career slugging percentage allowed is .353, and looks fairly consistent between years.
Moreover, his BABIP last year was .297 — very close to the league average of .299 and the team average of .304. So he didn’t get lucky on that either. It’s simply very tough to hit the ball hard against him.
Pinto also appears to be good at holding runners — opposing base stealers are a mere 5 for 13 against him. So it seems unlikely that teams can exploit his lack of control by manufacturing runs that way.
I know relief stats tend to be erratic. But at this point, we have three and a half years of stats for Pinto. That’s over 200 innings pitched. Moreover, in those 200+ innings, all his underlying statistics appear to hold true from season to season. I’ve reached the point where I’m willing to say his solid performance is not a fluke — that the pitcher we see is the pitcher he is. He walks way too many guys, but he’s hard to hit, and extremely hard to hit for power. Until and unless that changes, he deserves a spot on our roster.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
More arms
Mike MacDougal to a minor league deal which, according to Rosenthal at least, puts him in competition to be the primary set-up guy to Nunez.
Marlins Stadium: When It's Raining, The Roof Will Happen!
worst gift ever...
can you imagine a kid getting a Pinto jersey? poor little guy would stop watching baseball… At this point I wouldn’t mind if they trade this guy for some big league chew
There is no such thing as a Pinto fan.
And that’s from a baseball standpoint, not a fan standpoint. The guy’s also a jerk, but I wouldn’t care if he were a decent pitcher. Unfortunately, we have very few, if any, decent pitchers in our pen.
Marlin Maniac, a Florida Marlins blog
Come attend Intro to Sabermetrics 101!
Check me out at Beyond the Box Score as well.
Seriously
And I’ve heard almost no updates on Ceda and Tucker, when the hell are these guys supposed to come around. Do they even have ST invites? We need a bullpen ace badly…
they'll be there
Both are on the 40 man so they’ll be in camp.
I was putting guys 09 stats on their text board entries at RDS (yeah, I’ll be job-dropping a lot this season) and was amazed at the minor league numbers of a couple of the guys. Scott Strickland struck out 57 guys in 48 innings, which is pretty much the only way to get an ERA under 3 in Albuquerque. Daniel Jennings was basically the same for Jacksonville. And then there’s Kasey Olenberger, striking out a batter per inning with a WHIP right around 1.00 on his way to a friggin 1.10 ERA.
In the minors, if you’re not striking out a guy per inning (especially as a reliever) it’s hard to get excited, so these guys aren’t exactly studs (hence being completely untalked about) but when you compare them to the Turnbows and McClungs, you just cross your fingers that it’s just the media who’s enamored with names they remember from five years ago. There are options in camp; it’s just not the guys getting talked about.
Marlins Stadium: When It's Raining, The Roof Will Happen!
well I look at it as we have about 10 Relief pitchers that could start the season with the Fish and like 7 SP that could start in the Majors
RP
Nunez (lock)
Sanches (lock)
Meyer (lock)
Tank (him or Pinto for sure)
Pinto
badenhop (lock)
Jones
Ceda
Tucker
Turnbow
macDougal
Mcclung
any of the guys you mentioned (which I expect the marlins would take over any of the last three guys in that list because they will be cheaper)
SP
JJ (for sure)
Nolasco (for sure)
Miller
Vandy*
Sanchez
West *
Volstad *
- = my preferences
1b/3b should be fun
Gaby
Logan
Cantu
Jiminez (rule 5 pick from Astros 3b)
I look foreward to seeing Jiminez playing maybe he’d be better suited at 3rd then gaby/Logan are at 1st. Leaving cantu at 1st again which will only help our IF defense
I'm hoping Jimenez comes through
Then we could rotate him Gaby and Cantu around the corners, while Morrison gets more time in the minors so we can avoid super 2 on him.
Hard to get excited about Pinto
His FIP (fielder-independent pitching on an ERA scale) the last three years: 4.67 in 2007, 5.20 in 2008, 4.35 in 2009. His projections are all in the 4.5 range. He’s good to have if there are no better situational lefties available, but still replaceable. It’s tough to find good bullpen arms, but the Marlins strategy of throwing a ton of guys from the scrap heap into Spring Training competition could yield a guy who outperforms his averages. If that results in the loss of Renyel, I wouldn’t miss him that much (though I will miss the Renyel Pinto flow chart).
That's the thing.
Last year, we had a great bullpen by the second half of the season — and we got it by trawling through as many relievers as possible. I happen to believe Pinto can keep being effective, but if he doesn’t, we’ll find six or seven guys who can.
(I’ll tell you this — if there’s a returning reliever to worry about, I’d say it’s Nunez. As bad as he was last year, he was actually lucky. BABIP under .250.)
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
True
But I think Nunez gives up more than the average home run amount even if his HR/FB% regresses. Throughout his career he’s been allowing plenty of homers, save his 2008 season.
Marlin Maniac, a Florida Marlins blog
Come attend Intro to Sabermetrics 101!
Check me out at Beyond the Box Score as well.
Maybe he was on the crapper?
2009 NY Phin PhansFantasy League Champion
2009 Best Regular Season Record in NYPPL.
2010 The Jim Mandich NewsFlash Award Winner.
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