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Projecting our prospects: Cameron Maybin

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If you ask a fan who the Marlins top prospects are, they would likely know.  They would know that Michael Stanton has a lot of power and a lot of strikeouts, that Cameron Maybin has 5 tools, and so forth.

But what exactly does this mean in terms of production?

Generally speaking for hitters, you are who you are.  Unlike pitchers, whos stats can be deceiving, a hitter periphally will be around the same in the majors as he is in the minors.  These being walk percent, strikeout percent, batting average of balls in play, and isolated power.  With these four pieces of information, you can say what a hitters BA/OBP/SLG line will be.

Now they won’t perfectly transfer over.  Walks will normally go down and strikeouts up as batters face pitchers with better control and stuff.  Power doesn’t normally cap until a player is in the 25-27 range and age relative to league is important to consider.  A 25 year old with a .200 ISO in AA is not the same as a 20 year old with a .200 ISO on the same team.  The hope for a young hitter that hits a lot of doubles but not HRs is that those doubles then turn into HRs as his body progress.  However, power isn’t automatically going to go up.  Better defenses mean less doubles and triples for the ones that do stay in the park, which is big factor for guys with low power/high speed.  Improved defense (aswell as pitching) also means that a hitters BABIP almost always goes down from minors to majors.

Something to understand though is that batting stats can be a smoke screen as well.  Just because a guy walks a lot in the minors does not mean he will walk a lot in the majors.  For example, David Eckstein walked 13% of the time.  But in the majors he has walked at only half of that at 6.5%.  Why is this?  Lack of power, as can be seen by his.076 MLB ISO and .097 MILB ISO.  Because of his lack of power, pitchers in the majors attack him more, and you can only walk if you’re thrown balls.  Like wise, Dan Uggla’s walk% has improved because of his increase in power.

There is more to being a good player than just hitting and that’s with defense and baserunning.  And with those, we can only assume what a player will be based off scouting reports.  In the case of BR, it does not have that big of an impact; most players are between - and +1 run with the best being in the double digits and the worst being in the negative double digits.  We also can get a rough estimate of how “baseball fast” a guy is thanks to the Speed Score stat.  With defense, generally speaking a guy is statistically around what he is in the scouting reports.  There’s certainly some variation, but we can only go off what information we have at the time.

Now, with all of that said, let’s begin.  I’m going to start with Cameron Maybin, who will probably be up in the majors again soon.  He was disapointing in his time up at the start of the year but has been lighting it up in New Orleans as of late.  First allow us to look at his minor league line.

maybinmilb2

As we can see, he walks a good amount but also strikes out a lot.  He has above average power with a 0.175 ISO but also only averages 16 HRs over 150 games.  His BABIP is very high as to be expected from somebody who hits a lot of GBs and with his speed.

The main thing to understand with Maybin is his groundball rates.  One of the things scouts loved about him is that he has the potential to sit in the 25-30 HR range.  The problem is he has a career GB% of 56% and it’s 57% this season.  Guys with that high of GB rates just don’t hit for that kind of power.  If he’s able to get into the low 50’s, he can be a 20-25 HR guy asome hitters have been able to.  But most likely he will sit in the 15-20 HR range.  There is the chance he reworks his swing and starts living up to his power potential, but most likely this will not happen.

The one positive of his GB rates is that, with his speed, he should always have a high BABIP.  No, it won’t be his .400 MILB number, but it should sit in the mid 300’s.  But even with his high BABIP his K rates will keep him from hitting for a very good average as he’ll likely continue to strike out more than once every 4 AB.  A positive to look at is the fact he’s only striking out 19% of the time in AAA this season, showing that he has the potential to get his K rate down.

Defensively it’s no surprise that he is considered a plus defender with his speed aswell as having a plus arm..  His routes could still use some work but his speed has been able to overcome these mistakes.  In his limited time in the majors, the numbers back this up; He has a +2.3 UZR (+15 in 150 games) and a +4 Plus Minus (+18/150).  That’s a small sample size and he likely will not continue to be that good, but he is still expected to be a very good defensive centerfielder.  Likewise, his base running is expected to be a positive.  He hasa 7.2 MLB speed score after posting a 7.3 speed score in the minors.  He steals a good amount of bases (34 SB over 150 games) at a high rate (79% success rate).  In his limited time, he has a posted a 3.7 EQBRR (or Baserunning Runs), which translates to 13 runs over 150 games.  Like defense, it likely won’t continue to be that high, but he should continue to create a lot of runs on the base paths.

Taking all of this into consideration we come to:

maybinmlb3

What most likely happens: He still strikes out too much to have a good average and hits to many groundballs to have anything better than an average ISO.  His mid .700 OPS will likely piss off a lot of Marlin fans because of what was traded to get him, but his defense and baserunning still allows him to be a well above average player.  He will likely be a 4-5 win player throughout his career, which is normally a top 5-7 CFer in all of baseball.

Best case scenerio: His GB rates fall down to the low 40’s, allowing for his power to really break out.  His pitch recognition really improves and doesn’t strikeout nearly as much.  A 8-9 win is where the best players land; if he’s not the #1 CFer, he’s #1A.  I need to stress that this likely will not happen.  It’s possible, the Marlin’s own Hanley Ramirez is an example of a player that went from being a mid-50% GB hitter in the minors to a low-40% in the majors, hence why he’s hit for so much more power.  But you can not bank on a player being Hanley Ramirez.

Worst case scenerio: He’s just not able to improve his strikeout rate and his GB rate is too much to overcome, as his lack of power this year in AAA is for real.  He essentailly becomes a (on the high power end) slap hitter with defense and speed, allowing him to still be a good enough CFer but also very replacable.

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Liked the piece, though I doubt any player can “sit” mid-.350’s in terms of BABIP. I’d venture to say .320-.330 since Maybin is fast, but only the Ichiro’s of the world get those kind of career numbers out of something so random.

I’m wondering how you did those projections. Did you use a projection system like PECOTA to help or was that homebrew?

by SFiercex4 on Jul 21, 2009 10:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Home Brew, and I should note that I’m talking about what a player should be in his career, not what I expect him to be this year/rookie year/whatever. It’s really not that difficult though,

I disagree with your assesment of his BABIP though. With his GB rates and speed, it means a lot of base hits. The thing he has going over him over a slap hitter though, who trandiational are in the .320-.330 range, is his power. By hitting more hard line drives then your typical GB speedster, this will lead to more base hits aswell.

GB hitters who also hit for power are rather rare though. Hunter Pence (.333 career BABIP) and Derek Jeter (.361 BABIP, certainly won’t be as good of a contact hitter as Jeter but also more speed) are two that I can think of. There really isn’t a perfect guy before him that I can think of that he rates to across the board though to be able to make a better projection.

by nny on Jul 21, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

after thinking more, his low end should probably be in the .320-330 range (where slap hitters normally are) though with his high end being .330-.340 (more ld = more hits but less gb with his speed = more likely less babip). I messed up there.

Tweaking’s always a good thing. If I were to redo it I’d probably do .330 top, .320 low, keep mid at .340.

Doing that his top end changes to .288/.366/.496/.862 and his low end to .229/.291/.358/.639

by nny on Jul 21, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

and again lol

I wanted to see how this matched up against CHONE and PECOTA. I can’t find BB or K rates for Pecota, and don’t have a BP account, so skipping over PECOTA and going to chone…

I didn’t realize that CHONE did 6 year projection deal. They have him basically becoming what I said. They have him a bit better than I do. They have him at a whopping .360 BABIP, and increased BB rate to 12%, and ISO to .162 (17 HRs), but also that K’s will be a problem at 31%. .265/.358/.427 line.

Seeing that kinda makes me realize this was rather futile lol, since CHONE looks like it’s basically doing the same thing in translating BB/K/ISO/BABIP except it’d be a hell of a lot more sophisticated lol.

by nny on Jul 21, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

There are four players in baseball history with career BABIPs over .350.

Jeter, Carew, Ichiro, and Miguel Cabrera. Note that three of those guys haven’t gone through their declining years yet, and one of them also wasn’t a rookie in the major leagues. And of the four, only Cabrera utilizes power as a major part of his offensive approach.

I have high hopes for Maybin — I think someday he’ll learn to tell fastballs from breaking balls, and become quite a good major leaguer. I don’t think a .290/25-30 HRs line is out of the question. But I also think a .330 BABIP is about the limit… and given that pitch recognition is his hang-up right now, I’m not sure he’ll ever be a guy whose pitch recognition is a big strength.

He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 25, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good stuff

But first is the career BABIP over .350; I set a min PA of 3500 (~6 seasons) and 16 guys came up (out of 1417). Still not good but more than 4. But I projected .340, and that then raises the count to 50. And for the high/low that I did project .350, SFiercex4 brought it to my attention above and you can see what we said there, but yeah, those would go down.

Also, I’m not projecting Maybin’s rookie year or his down years,but rather his prime years, age 25-33 ish. And I’m sure the amount of babip’s north of .340 in prime years is a lot better than that.

by nny on Jul 26, 2009 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, okay

I actually looked this up several months ago for another thing, and think I might have used a higher PA threshold or something.

He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 27, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

good stuff, but...

Maybin is not a guy who will ever be a low-K/high-power hitter. It is not a coincidence at all that this year’s stint in New Orleans has seen a drop in strikeouts and a drop in power. He can replicate Uggla’s batting line with his old swing or something along the lines of Brian Roberts’ with the new one. But there is a less than zero chance his best power projection aligns with his best contact projection; he’s simply not that kind of hitter.

Marlins Stadium: When It's Raining, The Roof Will Happen!

by dan 2.0 on Jul 21, 2009 10:08 AM EDT reply actions  

correspondingly, come to think of it...

there’s no way Maybin or anyone strikes out upwards of 200 times and only hits 13 home runs and/or walks 8% of the time. Guys who strike out that often are Three True Outcomes hitters, with virtually no exceptions. To strike out that often and have an ISO under .200, much less .119 is more or less impossible, for reasons not the least of which are being bench and/or sent down. I know the projections are obviously standardized to 650 PAs, but it’s just not possible.

Marlins Stadium: When It's Raining, The Roof Will Happen!

by dan 2.0 on Jul 21, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s unfair to say that it’s impossible for him to improve in both areas of his game. It’s very unlikely yes, if he improves it’s much much more likely in one area than both.

For the second post, you’re basically saying it’s not possible because he wouldn’t be in the majors? The top end and bottom end are just that: At his absolute best he fixes all of his problem, at his absolute worst everything falls apart. So I’m not really sure what you’re arguing.

by nny on Jul 21, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm saying that neither is possible, and thus not really projections at all

There is a canyon’s worth of difference between “here’s what a guy has done; here’s the aging curves for skill sets; here’s the natural variability; and thus here are his projections” and “well why couldn’t he do this?” The former is projecting, while the latter is picking numbers out of the air. Considering your “perfect world projection” is unattainable by his skill set, and your “worst case projection” is unattainable by anyone ever, I’d have to guess you’re doing the latter.

To put it another way: that worst case projection may as well say he strikes out 500 times. Technically it’s possible, in the sense that it’s not numerically impossible; but in terms of projecting seasons for actual MLB performance, it’s just as impossible for a guy to strike out 197 times and have an ISO anywhere in the realm of .119. You’d be talking about the single most unique player in the history of baseball. That’s not “worst case;” it’s impossible, and maybe it’s just me, but I’d rather not bother with impossibilities.

Marlins Stadium: When It's Raining, The Roof Will Happen!

by dan 2.0 on Jul 21, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree but also disagree.

For one, it’s not really wildly picking numbers out of the air, since it is based off minor league numbers. It’s also not stone-cold but rather just a guideline.

Secondly, his worst case projection is not “unattainable ever”. There’s a guy in the majors right now who’s career numbers matches up with it very closely: 30% K rate, .123 ISO, 11% BB rate. Jack Hannahan. I’ll certainly give you that the high-end K guys around a .120 ISO are in the 26-28% range though.

But, at the same time, if he’s not showing power, pitchers will throw more strikes, so it’s unlikely he’d keep a K rate that high. Most likely a bad case is that he shows low power but still keeps a high K rate, with pitchers pounding the zone more and lower BB/K rates, or he keeps his average to above average power but keeps a low to mid 30% K rate, which would then have pitchers out of the zone and would raise his BB rate.

His best case scenario would just be a disagreement on what his skill set is though, I guess.

by nny on Jul 21, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just saw him tonight

My impression (and keep in mind this was the first and only time I’ve seen him play): impatient. Maybe a case of the pressure getting to him.

He’s put up excellent numbers for NOLA ( .339/.419/.486, in a pitchers park, K% ~16%, BB%~10%), but tonight he wasn’t sharp (0 for 4, K, BB, R). His key ABs were with the bases loaded, 2 outs, and he was swinging hard and getting fooled by outside curveballs. The other was in the bottom of the 9th, 1st and 2nd, down by one…4-6-3. He put some good wood on the ball in the other two ABs, driving both to CF, warning track area. He walked and scored on a Michael Ryan bomb.

Didn’t really see much defensively from him. There were a couple of singles to center that both scored runners from 3rd, he made a pretty good throw on one of them.

It was a very weird game. Andrew Miller walked 9, including the first 4, and 3 more in the 2nd. He settled down after whiffing Khalil Greene, who is down rehabbing his SAD, to end the inning. Memphis scored 6 runs on 3 hits.

In summary, I think he’s a good player, but he’s still a little raw. I think if he would adjust his swing to get doubles rather than HRs, he’d be a very dangerous man a la Granderson or Adam Jones.

"On my tombstone just write, THE SOREST LOSER THAT EVER LIVED." -- Earl Weaver

by CoachOfEarl on Jul 25, 2009 1:03 AM EDT reply actions  

Dropping HRs and more doubles already starting to happen

Thanks for the in-game insight.

As far as your assessment of how he should adjust to get more doubles rather than HRs, his season in AAA is turning that way. His HR/FB this year is just 8% after being 17.4% previously. But the % of hits that goes for 2b or 3b is now up to around 25%, after only being around 20%.

by nny on Jul 25, 2009 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Glad it was useful

Expect a HR drop for most people in New Orleans. It’s not a large park, 400 to CF, but it’s usually humid.

I would have liked to get out to see more Z’s games this year, but I’ve been really busy, so I missed out on Coughlan and Sanchez. I liked what I saw from De Aza and Gookie Dawkins.

"On my tombstone just write, THE SOREST LOSER THAT EVER LIVED." -- Earl Weaver

by CoachOfEarl on Jul 28, 2009 11:13 PM EDT reply actions  

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